Welcome to All There Is. Wherever you are in the world or in your grief, I'm glad you're here. Glad we're together. Today my guest is Robert Irwin. You may remember him from Dancing with the Stars last year or remember his dad, Steve Irwin, the Crocodile Hunter. Robert was just two when Steve was killed by a stingray while diving. I've been thinking a lot about kids and loss and how the death of a parent early on can completely change the trajectory of one's life. It certainly did with me. And I worry at times about not making it to see my two little boys grow up to be men. I think I will, but I like to talk to them a lot about how even though my dad died when I was 10, I feel him in my heart now and how I believe he's with me and with them and happy to see them growing up. I was really moved by an Instagram post I saw this week from James Van Der Beek's daughter, Emilia. She's just nine years old and her dad died last month on February 11th.

Today is my dad's birthday and the number one thing for somebody's passing is to talk to them and let your emotions out. If you miss them, you can cry. You can talk to them. I talk to my dad every day. And I start with a sentence and I say, hi dad, I miss you and I love you so much and I'll never stop loving you. I just tell him about my day, how I'm feeling. I tell my family how I'm feeling. And I know he can hear me, but I can't hear him. My mom can, and you just, you have to feel them in your heart, because they're in your heart, they're watching over you.

There's no way when I was that age, I could have said something like that so soon after my dad's death. Years before my childhood nanny, May McLinden, died after suffering from Alzheimer's, she told me about something I said to her just days after my Dad's funeral when I was 10. I was hugging her and I said, "Don't worry, May. Everything will be all right." She started to cry when she was telling me this story. "You didn't understand," she told me. "It wouldn't be alright. Nothing would be ever again." And she was right. In a moment, my conversation with Robert Irwin. My conversation today is with Robert Irwin. He's a conservationist, a photographer, and he helps his family manage the Australia Zoo, which is where he lives in Queensland. He's 22 years old and is probably best known in the US for winning Dancing with the Stars last year. Robert grew up in the public eye. His dad, Steve Irwin, was known around the world as the Crocodile Hunter. He was killed in 2006 by a stingray while diving for a documentary. I spoke with Robert a couple of weeks ago. You were two years old when when your dad died. I assume you don't have, or do you? Do you have any kind of sense memories of him?

It's an interesting thing. To me, my dad is almost more of a feeling than a memory if that makes sense. Like the memories that I have of him are so incredibly vague, but they're there. And I think one of the greatest gifts in my life is the fact that my entire existence and my childhood growing up with dad was all captured on camera. I mean, it is all there. And I mean, you watch Dad for two seconds and you get a pretty good picture of the sort of passionate individual that he was. And my mom tells the story of when she was in labor, like getting ready to give birth to me, right? And my dad was filming a documentary at the time, gets the call, absolutely races over there with the entire camera crew and films in the room, like while I'm being born. So I literally have that footage.

'I watched that- I actually watched it online and what a blessing to have video of the moment your dad first lays eyes on you.

'Is- isn't it an amazing thing how that can just spark that. I mean for me it'll be certain moments that I will see on on on camera. There's footage of my dad putting a coat on me right, putting like an overcoat that had a picture of a moose on it and I don't know what it was but I'm watching this video I was about two years old in the video and I just see the picture of the moose and and him putting the jacket on and it still just hits me. I'm just like, whoa, I remember that. I don't know what it is, it's that little moose jacket. For some reason that moment in time just all of a sudden comes flooding back and I'm just hit with this like, that's what he felt like. I remember feeling warm, I remember feeling protected and I remember just feeling like that's what he felt like to me. I just saw a piece of footage of him when he was around my age. He was in his kind of mid-20s and that was very surreal to me, seeing him speaking at my age and going wow, I'm I'm sort of stepping through life now in a similar way that he did and it's yeah it's powerful. It really is.

One of the early discoveries I had from somebody on this podcast was that you can still have a relationship with somebody who has died.

Yes, yes.

And that relationship can change over time. Do you feel that?

'I do feel that and that was like for me growing up, my greatest fear and it still is my greatest fear is forgetting what he feels like or what he felt like. And that was something that would for a long time really, really keep me up at night. But I think one of the greatest sort of saving graces in keeping him alive, I guess in my life is my mum. I mean she is I think the reason why I have such a clear picture of the person that he was, I have all of that footage, all of these photos that I can pull from, which I'm so grateful to have that resource, but also my mum to tell stories and to spark those memories and to keep him alive. Like when we were young, growing up, my mum and dad created this legacy of conservation. I mean, my dad was the most passionate human being on the planet. And it's hard not to, I mean, you remember someone who is living life at 110%. He was so devoted as a father, but you can't not remember that. I mean that's just sort of in-built. I feel like his passion is factory settings, but it was my mum that not only carried on this legacy that he created that then fell apart the instant that he passed away. She picked up all the pieces and carried on his work, all of the conservation work that we do, but also she kept him alive in our household. I remember one thing that we would do almost every morning and I would wake up and I'd go, I want to see a daddy doco. So mum would put on a documentary of my dad, you know, in some far-flung wild region of the world, doing what he did best. And almost every morning from the age of about three to maybe eight or nine, I would just sit there and I watch him. And dad was and is my hero, absolutely. I feel closest to him when I'm continuing what he loved, when I am talking about wildlife, when I'm in there you know feeding the same crocodiles that he rescued from the wild that were going to be poached or hunted and he would save them and give them a second chance at Australia Zoo and now I get to go in there and feed them and that is what keeps me closest to him is when I keep his work going.

It's interesting because he actually spoke about that in a video and he talks about the idea of you and your sister continuing on his work. Let's play that.

Is there anything in this world that would wanna make me give away what I'm doing now? Yes. Yes, there is. When my children can take the football that I call wildlife conservation and run it up. When they're ready to run up our mission, I will gladly step aside. And I guarantee you it'll be the proudest moment of my life. And my job will be done, then and only then will I know that I have achieved my ultimate goal, to be able to stand aside and let them run up my mission.

I remember the first time I saw that video, it's still heavy to watch that, but I remember first time I saw it and I went, my dad created this roadmap that I feel like I kind of get to follow, and every year I feel like I understand him more, and when I watch that I just go, wow, that's why I'm here. That's the honor of my lifetime is to continue that work. But it's hard to put that into words when you watch something like that. When you're literally watching someone who you've lost, like looking at you through the screen, saying, I believe in you to keep this going. I believe in you to keep this message alive. And I saw that video a few years ago for the first time, and I was like, wow, okay, I'm on the right track. This is what I'm meant to be doing.

You were growing up without a dad. He was obviously a very big presence in everything around you, the videos you watch, but did you feel the absence of him?

Completely and totally, I absolutely did. I feel like growing up without that father figure is very hard and growing up, I never really, there was nobody really that took that role. You know, I know a lot of people that have lost, you know, that sort of figure very early on and kind of family members and whatnot can kind of fill that sort role, but I feel that was my mum to me. Like she kept our family together 100% for my sister and I, but growing up, you know, it was comforting the fact that I had his presence around, that I could see him in videos and pictures and I could, when I walk around our place here at Australia Zoo, when i'm in the place that he built, I mean some of my early memories were of a morning we would go around and the park checks. And I would go around on his motorbike. I'd sit on the front of the handlebars. We'd go and get an ice cream and we'd go do the morning park checks. So being here in the place that he built, it's like I feel him so completely, but it's impossible not to feel that equal sense of emptiness of him not being here. I remember my sister got married here and you know, her grief journey is very different to mine, because I don't have many memories of dad. My struggle is the fear of kind of losing those memories of him. My sister has so many memories with him, and that's hard because she had more time and it's almost like that grief is processed differently because, you know, my dad and my sister were so incredibly tight.

Is it more tinged with sadness for her, do you think?

I think so. I think it stings more.

Because she knows what she's missing.

Yes, I think it almost stings more. I think for me it's like a blanket that's suffocating me, for her it's more of a stab. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of a crazy way of putting it, but I think its processed differently.

'Was there a time- as a kid, my mom had difficulties talking about my dad, and sort of my mom didn't have much experience being a parent. She didn't have much of a childhood herself and parents. But with the time she would occasionally try to talk about my dad, I was- it hurt me so much that he wasn't there, and I felt the loss so keenly, I could not even speak about him. I would just try to, I would shut down. She would try to tell a story, I would kind of politely listen, but I just wanted her to stop. Were you able to, obviously you're watching videos as a kid, were you able to talk about him, ask about him without a hitch in your voice?

'I kind of wanted to know everything about my dad. I remember being really really young. I remember like kind of the first I guess link for me realizing that he wasn't around was his motorbike. He would always get around on his motorcycle right? All the time. And I remember every day I would- wherever I was you know in the zoo or whatever I was doing I would hear the motorbike and I'd be like that's him and I remember like when that all stopped. You know, I remember you didn't hear the ring of the motorbike around Australia Zoo anymore. And I remember being so confused. When I was about three to four, I spent almost a year, having no idea how to fix a motorcycle, every day with dad's tools at his motorbike, trying to fix his motorbike, going, I need to get this thing running again so that he can come and start riding it again. Like what's going on, you know? And that I think was, I, I remembered my mum how she would explain things very delicately as to why fixing that motorbike wasn't gonna change anything. But she did so in a way with such care that that meant a lot to me. And I never realized, you know, you don't get it until you're older that she's going obviously through her own incredibly powerful grief journey. But she was always very open and would share stories. And I needed that. I think as a kid, I needed to feel that closeness with him. Because I felt like that was missing. And for me, I craved every new story I got about him. I craved just more and more of an understanding of who he was as I grew up. And then, you know, there were those sort of times when you're a teenager, when you were a young boy and you're kind of becoming a man. And that's very difficult to navigate without dad around. And my mom was unbelievable in that, in that period of time, unbelievable. Some of the stories that she would share, it was very hard for her to share and very hard for her to talk about. But I always loved that she embraced that. And she would always tell me growing up, there is so much power and so much strength in vulnerability. And there is so much strength in letting yourself feel it and sit in it. It's not just okay to sit in, I believe it's necessary to sit it. And she certainly showed me that. What was your transition between internalizing all of this, if you don't mind me asking? Because a friend of mine described it as grief will never go away, it's a shadow that lives in your soul but eventually it can walk beside you, which is basically saying it won't consume you anymore. Eventually you can live with it, acknowledge it and have it as part of your life walking beside you instead of within you. How did you make that transition to embracing it and taking it on board and feeling it and processing it? Because it sounds like that was hard to do as a kid.

Yeah, I mean, I'm 58 and I only started doing it about five years ago. So I'm literally kind of taking baby steps into it and learning it as I go. But I've recently, you know, been going through letters my dad wrote that friends and family members of his sent to me over the years.

Isn't it amazing how how far off you're still discovering things. Isn't that incredible? Isn't it incredible?

'Yeah, I know him- I'm learning all these things about him still, and it's great. And to me, what has happened is Andrew Garfield, the actor, was on the podcast, and he used a phrase which I'd never heard before, which is, the wound is the only route to the gift. And the wound, is the grief. The wound is, is, the pain of it. If you avoid that you don't get the gift and the gift is feeling them alive inside you again, feeling them again. And so I've only recently started to get the gift of feeling my dad. And it's a beautiful, it's an incredible feeling.

'Isn't it crazy how that pain can feel, it sounds so weird, but it can feel so good when you're actually embracing it. When you're letting it kinda hit ya. Not detrimentally, but you're letting it in and you're feeling it. There have been times in my life where there's like certain moments that just, it just hits you and you just like, oof. And I know for me like one of those moments was when I- my sister got married. Because she always planned on my dad obviously walking her down the aisle. She she got married what four years five years ago now and and I walked her down the aisle and I remember feeling like this isn't my job this isn't this isn't my job like- and and there's this weird sort of imposter syndrome but I was like this is this is what's what's going on. But I kind of went no no it's I I kind of get to you know I almost felt a responsibility it was like this is what dad was supposed to be doing So I got to make the most of it. I got do this for him. I need to enjoy this for him. I remember walking her down the aisle and that night just being like, like I downloaded, like I dumped so much emotion. I was just sitting in my backyard on the ground, just like dumping so much emotions. I think because yeah, there are these little moments that you just go oof. I'm a very sentimental person and my dad was like, he was kind of like Indiana Jones, right? When you walked into his office, it was like a museum. I mean, he's got like, Masai spears on the wall and he's got like swords from like, like he, like-

It's exactly what you would imagine his office to be.

'Oh, literally his office was like Indiana Jones. And I remember, I would often, and my mum was great about this. It was kind locked up the other side of, you know, but she would go, no, go in there. It was a big office. And I would sometimes, you know, just walk in and everything was left pristine, exactly the same, right? Nothing was touched. And sometimes I would just walk and I felt like I was in like, I don't know, like sacred ground. Don't touch anything, don't breathe on anything. And I would kind of just look, just on my own to just sort of get, I dunno, feel him again. And then one day I went, you what? I don't think he's gonna mind. So I started taking stuff. I went in and there's all of his shirts on the- on the on a rack that he used to wear all his khaki shirts I looked at that and I went I wonder if that fits me. So I popped it in the wash I put it on I'm like yep that fits. And I'm like great I'm gonna start wearing his shirts he's got uh he had a he had a watch on the- on the table that was sitting there always told the same time and I said I'm going to get that thing working again and got it working and started wearing it and I thought you know what like what's stopping me from doing that. Now it's like this really powerful thing. It's like almost like it was, that was like this stepping off point to be like, he's this almost like untouchable part of my life that is like held stale in time. But then I kind of went, no, no no no. I can embrace that. I can bring that into my world. So that was kind of really powerful for me.

I love that, that's really awesome. Yeah, I understand that.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, and it also gives new life to these things which become draped in memory and maybe sadness and are frozen in time, as you say, and it brings them alive again. Brings them alive in a way.

His watch was actually a very interesting story. When my dad passed, he was on a shoot with a man by the name of Philippe Cousteau. The Cousteaus, of course, an incredible family, an incredible conservation legacy in their own right. And when he was that shoot and everything happened, Philippe got dad's watch and through various channels, managed to get that watch back to us. And I think that was important for him because I think there was a certain connection that he had to his dad through a watch that he wore. And so he had sort of a similar kind of story and he thought, well, this is important that something of his ends up back with the family. And that was just sort of locked away in a safe for a long time in his office. And I dug the watch out. I cleaned it up. I fully restored it. And I started wearing it again. And it was wonderful, right? Well, a couple of months later, I was in LA for an annual gala. I'd just turned 18, I think. And I went, I wanna kind of symbolize this moment. I'm gonna go out and I'm going to get my own watch. I'm a go and I get a diving watch that's really nice. I'd saved up for a long time and I gonna get this. I went and I bought that watch. I walked out of the store and I felt so proud. And I went into the grocery store to just, I don't know, get a glass, get a bottle of water or something. And in the line is Philippe. He's in the lines at the grocery stores.

What? Wow.

The day I bought this watch.

'By the way, in L.A., you don't meet other humans you know in the grocery- you don't meet humans. People are in cars.

'And I'm in the line and I look up and he looks at me and he just goes, woof. And cause I hadn't seen, I don't think he'd seen any of our family since that had happened. And I just, I looked like I'd seen a ghost and I'm like, whoa. And we just got to talking after that about, about everything. And I think he was wearing what I think was his dad's watch and I I'm wearing this watch that I just got and I sort of tell him that story. And it was a powerful thing like- but that's just so dad. I mean, my dad is just like, he lived such a full and incredible life that like there are still all of these amazing things I'm discovering and these, these epiphanies that I'm having because of him. You don't want to get too caught up in material possessions, but all of a sudden when you lose someone, material possessions become really important, like really important. Not for what they are, but what they represent.

There's actually a video from TikTok I think that you made about one of your dad's shirts.

G'day, it's Robert. Every show day on Dancing with the Stars, I have two good luck charms that I bring with me and I wanted to share it with you. These two things are a way to keep me close to home and to what's most important to me. This ring and this shirt. So I wanted just to start with the shirt. This is my dad's shirt. I was going through his stuff and I found this shirt, it's absolutely tattered and had holes and all sorts in it and missing buttons, so I went and got it all fixed up, new buttons attached, everything all patched back up again and all the holes repaired and kind of got it back up to scratch and I like that it still looks and feels like him. I mean each one of the tears and the holes and the missing buttons tells another story.

I love that you found this shirt and you basically had it patched back up and was that the shirt you were talking about?

Yeah, that was it. I had it all completely. It was in ruins, you know? But I loved that everything told a story. When I took it in, they were like, oh, we can patch it up so it looks brand new. I'm like, no, no no no, I want it to look how it did. Just stitch it all back up again. Cause each tear was like legit that was a crocodile. That was saving a koala. That was, you now, when he was in East Timor. You know, like it was all something.

And you know the stories of the tears.

Exactly exactly. And I was like okay this is like I'm putting on a piece of heritage but it was funny because I actually found that right before I went to do Dancing with the Stars which was an absolute leap out of anything close to what I had done I mean it's a far cry from being out in the Australian bush you know. And I wanted something that kept me...

You pretty much kicked ass on that, as I recall.

Oh, thank you, mate. Thank you very much. It was the lucky shirt. I was like, I need something that keeps me close to home. So there were two things. It was that shirt that I would wear to every show day, every rehearsal. The other thing I had was a ring that I wore that was, I found the keys to my original childhood home that we all lived in. My dad's set of keys. I got them melted down and put them into a ring with 1638 etched on it. 1638 Steve Irwin Way. That's where we live, that's the zoo. And so I had that etched on my finger, on my ring. And like those were just two ways to kind of keep me close. But I find that very important, those little things that keep you close to them.

We're gonna take a break. We'll have more of Robert Irwin in a moment. Welcome back to more of my conversation with Robert Irwin. It's nice to me that you can speak about him kind of without really a hitch in your voice. He seems to be for you this energy source as opposed to something which is hobbling you.

He's a good feeling. He's the feeling I want to have around. I, and honestly, I think the journey that I went on on Dancing with the Stars, which sounds so completely weird that that would be the journey, that does it. But that was sort of the first time I'd ever properly sat in it and really embraced grief and ended up kind of going through a bit of a grief journey quite publicly on the show. And it was very strange, but that was like this catalyst to, you know, we did a couple of dances that were sort of paying homage to dad and to a story of grief and a story of gratitude to my mum for how she helped me navigate this. And it, it was the first time I'd ever like properly kind of bared my soul to everybody and it gave me this new sense of confidence because I was willing to be really vulnerable about it. I had kind of allowed myself to really sit in it. I cried a lot during that period. And It's like now, really only in the last few months, I can talk with this sense of, there's no fear because I'm like, I know that if I talk about it a lot and I get done with this chat and I'm feeling low, it's like, you know what, it's okay. I can cry it out. I can acknowledge it. I can to talk to people about it. It's fine. It's okay and everybody's going through that. So it's almost, it gives you this new found sense of confidence to talk about it and this ability to talk about it. Yeah, Dad, to me, feels like he feels warm. When I think about him, it's warm. It didn't used to be. But it feels good, it feels something that I want to be there. And I feel like I've kind of repaired a lot of the pieces that were bringing me down, figuratively and literally. I just restored his motorbike. You know, the one that I was talking about when I was a little kid that I just sort of obsessed with.

You just restored it.

'It sat in the shed for ages, a long, long, time. And one day I just woke up and went, screw it. I'm gonna get it running again. And it was a big restoration process, and now it's running again. And now that's how I get around Australia Zoo, how he did on his motorbike. And I just went, you know what? I'm gonna embrace it. Instead of going, every time I looked at that motorcycle, it was just like- it was horrible. I just looked at it and I almost had like disdain for this inanimate object. Because that was like, that was my, as a young toddler, that was, like, my conduit to him. That was my connection to him, because I remember I'd always hear the motorcycle first and then I would see him. It was like the, so I'd look at that motorbike and I'd just go, screw you, you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, there was like this animosity. And then I fixed it up and started riding it. I ride it every single day. And now it's, when I get on that motorbike, I'm like, hell yeah. I'm, like, yep, sweet, hell yeah. I hear that engine running and I'm like, send it, and I put it in the top gear. And I'm and it's almost like this way to be like, screw you, it's fine, I got this, man, I've got this.

Is there something you've learned in your grief that would be helpful for others?

'I think the strength in vulnerability is so important and that's like this epiphany that I've had in the last kind of six months. And it's so simple, and I think it's what everybody says, but when you really actually feel it and allow yourself to feel that, it's different. Like I remember my whole life, I kept my dad alive in my life thanks to my family. I had this footage, I talked about him a lot. I felt like I'm doing all right. But last year, I sort of addressed the fact of like, am I doing alright? Or am I just convincing myself so hard that I'm doing alright? Is that what's happening? And I didn't realize until I really drilled down into it that there was an extra little chamber in there that hadn't been unlocked yet that I had to unlock. And I'd never really let myself fully sit in it. And I sort of had this epiphany that I'd never really properly said thank you to my mum for how she had gotten us through this time. And so I started like looking at grief through the lens of gratitude for the people around me that helped me through and also sort of acknowledging within myself that it was okay I'd never really processed it and I'd ever really drilled into it. And when I started looking at it through that lens of, wow, like thanks mum, and I'm really sorry what you had to go through. And we had some conversations last year that were really, really hard, that were really raw, and were really- very emotional and that helped a lot and I think we don't always have someone to lean on in grief. We don't. Sometimes we have to be that person, you know, and I, I think the most important thing is to really have kindness in, in yourself to first and foremost realize your grief journey is completely incomparable. You cannot compare it to anybody else as long as it's not harming yourself or anyone around you that is the right grief journey and allow yourself to sit in it, allow yourself to to be there and yeah you have to fully and 100% embrace it but for me completely embracing grief was actually yeah, really trying to say thank you to my mum. And it's such a weird thing, I don't know why this was such a pivotal moment, but it's the truth. The moment that kind of like shifted things for me was on Dancing with the Stars, I did this dance that was a contemporary routine to a song by Phil Collins that was basically like the physical representation of how my mum pulled me out of some pretty dark spots. And it was a dance that I did with my dance partner, Whitney. And then at the end, my mum came in and we had like this, you know, really, really nice moment there at the end. And it was the hardest dance we did. It was so completely physically exhausting. I had an injury at the time. It was, oh, it was a hell of an effort to get through. And then that moment of mum coming out on stage, we sort of had this hug. And then night it was my sister, my mum and I were all sitting around the dining room table and we just sort of like, we just grief dumped. And that was like this pivotal moment where it was like, okay, the bit that I was missing was saying thank you to the person that got me through grief. That was the bit that was missing. So my message would be, don't expect to have it figured out. Don't expect to know- sometimes you don't even know yourself what you need to fully process it, but you really owe it to yourself to think about it, to not let it consume you, but to sit in it, to acknowledge it. To let in the people around you that want to help, but to realize that this is an individual journey that only you can take.

Do you talk to your dad?

'Yeah, there are- there are moments where-

If it's too personal, it's fine.

'It's fine, it really not. There are moment where... I'll sit- I'm always closest to dad when I'm in the middle of nowhere, you know, when I'm out in the bush. And there are absolutely moments where I'll be hit with this sense of- it's warmth, it's like something kind of wraps around me. And I will absolutely sit and just say, how do I- how, like, how do I go forward, you know? How do you- how do you move forward? Particularly for me, as a young guy, and in the public eye, going through all of the motions that we go through. Being scrutinized so much and my dad always being this constant thread in my life and people always talking about him sometimes one of the nicest things is to just sit- it for me it's in nature and I just kind of let I kind of just let it all go. I let it all sort of pour out and it feels like I'm kind of letting him in sometimes I sit and just go, what's next? How do I put one foot in front of the other? And there's no answer, but it almost feels like there's a resolution that comes out of that. Do you know what I mean? And it's like you need to check in every now and again. There are these checkpoints I find like through life where you're kind of going through the motions and then sometimes something will just hit you and you need to just step away. You need to kind of just download and you need to let loose. And you need to go, I need to refocus. You know, on what is my grief journey. I don't know, it's... There are moments that I have found that feel like he's trying to say something. This is a moment that is very... It was one of the most beautiful things and it was really special. It's a, I'll try and make a long story short. We do a crocodile research expedition in Northern Australia, right? Where we catch, tag and release crocodiles, which is all in the name of crocodile conservation to figure out their movements, their behaviors and how we can better protect them. And this is something that my dad started about 20, 25 years ago. There's about 30 people involved to capture a crocodile. When you're talking about a crocodile that's 16 feet long, it is an absolute military precision exercise to catch and release a crocodile, right? This thing is a dinosaur. And it was my first time doing what's called the team lead of a capture. And to be team leader on a research expedition is a very, very, very big deal. It's like a rite of passage. I'm nervous, my heart is pounding. We do the capture and this bloke put me through it. He's death rolling. Head shaking, a couple of really close calls on my behalf. We go to attach all of the satellite trackers, right? This satellite tracker that just sits here. And Toby goes to my mum, he's like, Terri, this crocodile's gotten a tracking device before. And we're like, that's impossible. We've never caught this croc. Yeah, we put a little microchip in them so that we can see if we've caught them before. No microchips. We've never caught this crocodile. He's not in any of records. And while I'm sitting there laying on this crocodile, there's this very distinct marking in one of his scales. And I just had this like little epiphany. I went, hang on a minute, let me check this photo. And there was this old, old photo that I remember of my dad with a giant crocodile that he'd caught like 20 years ago. And I look at the scale and this pattern, and then I look this, and then look at where the tracker had used to be, and I'm like, yep, that is exactly how he attached it. It was a crocodile that my dad had caught 20 years ago. And the craziest bit is, we managed to use satellite technology to figure it out, and we caught him in the exact same spot that he did on an expedition completely randomly 20 years back. And I'm sitting, I'm laying on this croc and I feel his breath on my face. And I'm looking at this guy and he's looking at me and he's probably thinking, these bloody Irwins. And he's like- and I'm like, whoa, I'm one-on-one with this dinosaur that my dad first experienced. And I remember that being like, I felt like that was dad being like this is your first time leading the team. Like you're on the right track. Here's a little sign. I don't know, it felt like to me.

That's awesome. I love that.

It was cool, it was cool man. It was really cool.

'I was thinking, I have a four and a little- a six year old. And-

That's so cool, man.

'The thing that I'm excited for you to experience is that when you have kids, I think you will experience what I experienced, which is looking at my kids, I came to understand what my dad saw when he looked at my brother and I. And I can't help but think that when you have kids you will see them through your dad's eyes, just the way your dad looked at you. And you will come to under- not only will you have the joy of the kids, but you will come to understand your dad in a whole new way, because you will have seen what he saw when he looked at you.

Gosh, that must be powerful, man.

It's awesome.

'What does that- what does that feel like? How do you even put that into words?

It's another way of feeling your dad and it's another way of understanding him because the way you imagine your dad is that you see him through the eyes of a child, essentially, you see through the eyes you have watched him on television all growing up, but suddenly to see your own children through your eyes, eyes he gave you and your mom gave you, is to see him, through the eyes of an adult, in a different way. It's something to look forward to.

'I think about that footage of my dad in the room when I was born and you were saying I think that you'd watched it and I watched that only recently for the first time. My dad was like such a tough bloke, but also the most emotional guy in the world. And I remember like, that's, that what really hits me is when I see my dad emotional and in that footage, like he picked me up and he, and he- um, and he looked at me and he goes, like, I think he said, I've realized this is what life is, this is what life is about. Like this is, this is why I'm here is what he said. I look forward to that greatly because that's all we've got is the people that we love. And that's why I feel so deeply that grief is okay to be felt. Because it's just the continuation of that love. Yeah I look at that and I just, I feel so lucky that I know and I can quantify the love that he felt for me and for my family. I really, really, really look forward to that moment, and I think that it's so healing to talk about it, and it's so, so, so wonderful. I just feel so blessed that I am in a position where that journey, and I feel like it's the same for you, the grief journey that we're taking, like nobody's an expert, but that we kind of figuring out as we go, that we can share that with people. And I just, yeah, I feel that's kind of our job, is we have experienced this, we have a platform, and how lucky is it that we get to take people on this journey, and that hopefully we can, we can help unify people through that. Because it is so unifying. I always say it's a crappy club to be in, but there are a lot of bonds I have in my life that have been made through grief, through shared grief experiences, to be like, yeah, that sucks. I feel that. I've been there. You know what I mean? And that is often, It often binds us. It really does.

I mean, I say that all the time, which is it is the most universal of human experiences and it feels so lonely and yet it is and should be a bond.

Exactly.

I mean it's a bond that everybody, every person on the planet shares or will share at some point in their life and connects us with every person that has ever lived because every person who's ever lived has experienced loss and experienced grief. Robert it's really a really a pleasure to talk to you, I wish you well.

Been a great pleasure, thank you.

'Talking with Robert, I was really impressed with his ability to speak about his dad and how he's learned to live with his dad's memory, but not in his shadow. At 22, there's no way I could have spoken about grief in the way that he does. And I'm really happy that he's so willing to talk about his experiences in a way that I think can really help others. Coming up on the podcast, we're gonna bring you a conversation with the Grammy-winning singer and songwriter and actress, Sara Bareilles. She's been working on all new music that she says is inspired by grief, including a song that she wrote inspired by a conversation that Stephen Colbert and I had on this podcast. You wrote a song based on a particular episode with Stephen Colbert.

Yes. I was walking around, I live in Brooklyn, I was walking around listening to the podcast. And I was so moved by the story Stephen shared about losing his father and his brother.

Yeah, Stephen's father and his two brothers, Peter and Paul, were killed in an Eastern Airlines plane crash when Stephen was 10 years old.

Your connection in that conversation was just, I found it to be really, just really inspiring. And I came home and started writing a song about it. And then I was on a television show at the time called Girls5eva, and our creator, showrunner is Meredith Scardino, who was the head writer at Stephen's show. And so I sent it to Meredith and I was like, is this weird? I wrote a song kind of about Stephen Colbert's you know, experience as a child. Is it weird to send it to him? I have no idea. And she did, and she sent it to him, and we had this really beautiful exchange, and now I get to share that with you, and it's your story woven in there as well. And just this idea that, you know you share your stories. If we just continue to be brave enough to share the stories that we've lived through, the connection is a part of the medicine.

'I do think it's the only thing that really helps. At least for me, it's really the only that's really helped. The podcast episode with Sara Bareilles will be out soon. Later this week on Thursday, March 12th, I hope you join me at 9:15 p.m. ror my live streaming show, All There Is Live. You can join, you can chat with others who are watching on our grief community page during the program. One of my guests on the program this week is a podcast listener, Jamie Wooten. He was a writer on the TV show Golden Girls, and he talks about the sudden death of his husband, Nick, and also witnessing the physician-assisted death of one of his closest friends.

We all got on the bed with her, and just as we got on the bed, Elton John's Tiny Dancer started playing. And just when it got to the chorus, all of us started singing automatically. We did, we were just, hold me closer, tiny dancer. And she was gone. And Anderson, I'm telling you now that was the bravest decision I've ever seen anyone make and stick to. I'm in awe of what Nancylee Myatt did.

'To watch, just go to cnn.com slash allthereis Thursday night, March 12th at 9.15 p.m. And if you missed the live stream, it'll be posted the following day for a week on that site. Also, if there's something you've learned in your grief that you think would be helpful for others, leave us a voicemail at 404-827-1805. You can also send us a video message, email it to us at allthereis at cnm.com or send it to use on Instagram at allthereis. Thanks so much for listening. Wherever you are in the world or in your grief, you're not alone.