This is One Thing, I'm David Rind, and in fights across the country, pitting average Americans against giant AI data centers, Aaron Brockovich thinks people are waking up to a harsh reality.

They're starting to realize Superman's not coming.

Stick around. Paint the picture for me like where you live, like how close is the nearest one to you?

'Well, I'll show you this one is about a four-minute drive

Okay...

And then the next one is this one. And this is also about a...

When I spoke to Elizabeth Martorana last October, she was eager to show me just how many data centers have been going up around her Virginia 55 and up neighborhood. She had maps, printouts, and everything.

And the red, those numbers are the approximate number of diesel generators next to those buildings.

She even shared what it sounds like to live next to one.

'There were people on a Sunday morning going for a hike and they couldn't figure out what this humming was. And the humming can come from the 24-7 air handlers on top of all of these data centers.

Virginia is quite literally the data center capital of the world. According to the Industry Resource Site data center map, Virginia has more than 600 data centers across 24 markets. Some are for artificial intelligence, some serve other purposes, but the point is there are a ton. And Prince William County, where Elizabeth has lived for nearly 50 years, is seeing a major boom in construction of these data centers. Have you seen more go up since we last spoke?

I've got more pictures for you.

When I caught up with her again on Thursday, she had even more printouts.

This is what my end of the county, Western Prince William County looks like right now. You've got all those dots. Yeah. So the dots are buildings. And so I live within, you know, a six minute drive of all of these maybe.

How many buildings are we talking about?

We are, I counted 66 under construction are completed and 74 that are pending and planned. That's just in Western Prince William County.

Liz has spent the golden years of her retirement fighting the construction of these centers. She says they are too noisy, too dirty, and being built without input from locals.

'Facebook is covered with, I don't know how many different anti-data center activist sites right now. People charging against the data centers, they don't want them. They don't them to take their land. They don't want the infrastructure. They don't want all of the transmission lines and the substations that come with it. They want to keep their environment.

Now, the leaders of these tech companies insist they are being good neighbors and are being mindful of the environmental impact. Meta, for example, says they pay the full cost of water and energy use so consumers don't have to. They also argue the centers will create thousands of jobs and give the U.S. A national security advantage over adversaries like China. But Liz believes the grassroots opposition in her area is already making an impact. For example, Prince William County officials abandoned plans for a complex of 37 centers near Manassas National Battlefield Park earlier this year after a long and costly legal battle. What was your reaction when you heard about that?

I actually started crying. Prince William County spent, I think we were up to $1.7 million of county taxpayer money fighting this case, which was fighting us residents.

Right, the taxpayers are paying for the county to defend themselves against you.

Yes, exactly. It's ludicrous.

One of the developers on the project appealed the ruling to the state Supreme Court. They don't have to take up the case, but they could. Liz told me in October she'd be fine with moving away, but her husband didn't want to, and that's still the case. So for now, she'll keep pushing the issue right there in Virginia. And as communities battle over data center sprawl, dire warnings about AI's influence have arrived on the global stage.

Here this morning, Pope Leo taking on the rapidly advancing world of AI, laying out a pretty stark warning that technology of its kind is fueling world conflicts.

Let's not fear artificial intelligence, but constantly keep the question of the human in play. Artificial intelligence needs to be disarmed.

Earlier this week, another major voice joined the chorus of concern, Aaron Brockovich, the environmental activist and corporate hell raiser who along the way also became a pop culture icon.

What makes you think you can just walk in there and find what we need?

They're called boobs, Ed.

The 2000 Stephen Soderbergh movie was the true story of Brockovich's pursuit of justice for the small town of Hinkley, California, whose residents were being sickened by Pacific gas and electric pollution. The film scored Julia Roberts a Best Actress Oscar.

And he's going to make them give five million of that to your family.

Dollars? Brockovich helps secure what was at the time the largest settlement ever paid in the direct action lawsuit. And she has kept fighting for consumer and environmental issues ever since. The Flint water crisis. Toxic water at the Marine Corps base Camp Lejeune. And now she set her sights on AI data centers. Brockovich has launched a crowdsource map of current and planned data centers where people like Liz in Virginia can report what they're seeing. It's called Brockovich AI Data Center reporting. But what's the next move here? Can these centers actually be stopped? And is there a true villain in all this? Aaron is with us now. Aaron, thank you so much for being here.

Thanks for having me.

So social media was really lighting up this week with this map of data centers that you put out. People were like, oh, Aaron Brockovich is on the case now. This is big. Like, what are you hoping to do with this initiative?

So generally what happens in my 30 years of working, when I have overnight 30, 40, 50 people from the same town contacting me, it's generally a very quick pattern recognition, something's going on. So this started for me like it did everything else. I got curious and I started asking questions. And so As I did more research on data centers and I started getting more emails, I thought, you know what, I need to see the big picture, which is why I created the map. I have seen too many times communities involved in something and they think it's only them and they feel oftentimes defeated or no one else is experiencing the same problem. And so I created a map as a way for all of us to see. In a way for people to connect to each other or realize they aren't alone. I had no idea this was going to happen. The first day that we just put up the map, it crashed twice. And by the second and third day, I had 49 states reporting from communities. And I think it's really important that we listen and hear the actual people on the ground and what they're experiencing. I did not know it was the entire country.

I mean, what are the people telling you? Like what kind of information are they bringing to your attention?

'First of all, the number one thing they're very worried about is water. But what's really, it's not overriding water, but they're are very upset. Every single group is reporting. They're city council signed NDAs. They are so upset, they didn't know. They use words like secretive. This was done in secrecy. This was in the dark of the night. Their voices were dismissed. They had no idea. So people are reporting, A, where the data centers are already up and running. They are having to drill new wells. They're losing water pressure. They are really, the noise and this low hum. That goes on 24 seven is extremely disruptive. They're very worried about all the land loss. They claim, you know, the trees are gone. They're sending in pitchers. They're clearing forest. They're losing their wildlife. They are losing their sanctuary and they don't want it. They don't it. And so They're very upset. Now we have people reporting again, ones that are up and running, ones that're proposed, ones that under construction, and they're finally showing up at city council. So we are starting to see winds across the country where there's moratoriums, where there is two-year delays. Where they're not going to approve it until they've got some environmental impact studies. And this is a really good thing.

So people feel cut out of the process. They don't feel like their voices were heard at all throughout the planning, the construction, et cetera. What are you gonna do with the data you gather or the stories that you collect? What is the next step?

'So, well, we're kind of in that next step now. So people, you know, they're emailing me, they're now joining forces. There's a great deal of support in communities when they realize this isn't their own fight, that they're all fighting it. So they start connecting state to state, city by city, county by county, and working with each other. So they'll do that through me. The map's purpose is for us to see the big picture. And this is self-reporting. These are the actual people who are actually experiencing what's happening. And to see the visual that they're all going through the same thing helps them network, helps them feel like there's support and they start showing up more and banding together in dealing with what's in their backyard.

Well, the backyard is something I wanted to ask about because you hear the term NIMBY a lot with stuff like this not in my backyard. I guess I'm wondering, is this just people don't like the eyesore, they don't the noise, it's just kind of disrupted to them in their community or is this something bigger that you're seeing?

That's a great question. I just think that they're realizing all of us and that's what fascinates me about watching what's happening is I don't know what we're really thinking. If you're really that we're in droughts and look, this isn't about AI. This is about the data centers and where you're placing them and they don't want them in their backyard. They don't wanna lose their trees. They don't want to lose the sanctuary of, you know, their wildlife or disruption to that, or having their water run down to a trickle. And I think what they're really saying is the secrecy of how these things are passed and they're not included in that. They're going to start showing up.

I mean, the argument from these AI or tech companies is that regulations stifle creativity, it slows them down, and they need to be able to kind of work, push things ahead. What would you say to that, just based on your past experiences dealing with these corporations or companies?

'Um Well, that's a shame because I, again, I don't think you can discount the people's voice and what's important to them. So they can have that mindset at a local level. They are now getting more torrents. I think there's 10 or 12 states now. And you know, this isn't a writer blue thing. This is very bipartisan. They want more information about environmental impacts, What will happen to the water? So it's never a good idea to just come in and bulldoze your way in, and people will say that. They feel like this is being rammed down their throat. I've learned communities, and when people self-report to me, I can hear their voice and share their voice that... Communities don't handle lies well. They'll handle the truth. But they need an opportunity to have a seat at that table. And instead of ramming something down their throat, let's have a conversation about what's your boundary? I don't want it right in my backyard. How about a 25 mile buffer zone? So being left out of that is a real problem. And I think companies... Can get a lot further if they'll cooperate and allow the community to have a seat at the table with them. But they will not handle the lie. They will get frustrated. And now you're gonna have a reaction where city councils, because their community doesn't want it, hold you back. They're gonna pause for two years. I'm seeing more and more permits being denied. And it's not forever, but... They want to pause. We want to look at this. We need more information and I don't know why that process shouldn't occur.

We should say NDAs are common in many economic deals beyond data centers, and industry advocates argue it keeps companies competitive. We reached out to six of the biggest players in this industry, Amazon, Microsoft, XAI, Google, Meta, and Vantage data centers to ask them about their use of NDA's in data center construction. Meta did not deny that they use them, saying that confidentiality agreements are standard part of site selection efforts. They said they don't prevent partners from addressing key questions from the public over water use, economic impact, and environmental concerns. Microsoft said they made the decision in January to end the use of NDAs with local governments in an effort to deliver more transparency. Amazon, Google, XAI, and Vantage did not respond to our request for comment. We got to take a break while we come back. I ask Aaron if this anger over AI data centers extends to AI itself. Stick around.

The rise of artificial intelligence is the next industrial revolution.

We've seen a lot of visceral reactions to just AI in general at some of these graduation speeches where people are getting up there, extolling the virtues of AI, and the students are booing them.

AI capabilities are in the palm of our hands. And, and, oh I love it, passion, let's go, okay.

You know, basically the message there is things are changing, this is happening, get on board, whether you like it or not, and the company leaders say, you know, we have to have this stuff for national security or our economic future against China. Do you ever worry that you might be fighting against the future?

No, absolutely not. Listen, you know, again, I told you this, the data centers isn't about AI. These are AI data centers. We know AI is here to stay. I talk about AI a lot. I did see the Steve Wozniak graduation speech, which I really enjoyed.

We got AI today, you all have AI, actual intelligence.

You know, AI will probably and is an effective tool.

'So you're not anti-AI in general.

No, I understand AI, and again, it's a tool. I encourage people to use your own critical thinking, okay? That's really important. Ask questions of AI. It doesn't know everything. It's only gonna know what we put into it. It's here to stay. I get that. For these people, the frustration is, it's not necessarily that they are or aren't against AI or for it. This is about where you're placing your data centers and they were left out of any vote or conversation about that.

I mean, so if there are uses for AI that people might be on board with, I guess I'm wondering about like the idea of there being a clear villain in this discussion, like your activism against PG&E back in the 90s had a, you know, clear villain and there were clear repercussions, you know. People were getting cancer. I guess how do you communicate the seriousness of an issue like this when there are benefits to AI that some people are on board with and to some people who don't live in your data centers.

Well, so that's a great question again. A lot of people reporting from, again, it's the whole country, um, community by community is the frustration with the NDAs. I think they know AI is here to stay. And like I've said, it is a tool. It's not be all end all, but it can be an effective tool. But the issue is at a local zoning permitting level, and I don't want to call them out as the villains, but if you're doing this as a commissioner or a city council member, and your constituents are completely against it and you're not giving a voice, I think that's a problem. And again, these people, they'll listen. But when you just mow them over, they show up and they'll let you know how they feel. And so they'll talk to you, what's the boundary? Give me some information. I encourage them. You can use AI and their own technology to help you fight back by understanding the system.

So you want them to utilize AI to kind of build a case.

'You can use it as a tool to find information. You can do that through Google as well. You can research online. So yes, some people are against AI, but this self-reporting is about the data centers, where they are placed.

'Gallup put out some polling earlier this month that showed, while more than two-thirds of Americans oppose the construction of data centers, women especially don't want them. Out of 1,000 adults, 55% of women were strongly opposed, men, 43%. Why do you think women feel so strongly about this?

'Oh, moms are always that way. I've always said, piss off one mom and she goes and gets 10,000 moms. You're in for a good fight, but they worry for the health of their children. And, you know, I've had people report that children that have special needs are affected. You know, I have a special needs grand-daughter and noises and things like that can really create commotion for them. But moms are very instinctual moms are very protective. They, again, feel something's being put in their backyard with no conversation about what impacts that would have on their child, their health, and their future.

Your fight with PG&E took years before families were compensated. So what does winning look like to you in this fight against data setters and when do you think that'll happen?

It's happening real time, lifetime right now. I just, again, got another report this morning. The company withdrew the permits because of the opposition of the community. So I think you're going to see wins across the board as the communities start to show up. And Hinkley, you know, we were in litigation and we had to wait for that result. But winning for them was being heard. Being seen, winning for them was the community coming together, and winning for them was finding out the truth. And so in Hinckley, you know, it's not the payday that is the win for them. The fact that they got justice and something changed is a win.

Another argument I've heard is that this is kind of like a moral panic akin to what we saw against nuclear power plants back in the day. What's your thought on that?

Well, you'll see people coming, and I'd rather live next door to a nuclear power facility than a data center.

And I believe polling actually backs that up. Yeah.

And so, and you know, interesting you talk about polling, you know I can tell you, you know as of today, we have 5,384 submissions. We'll update it each week. We're gonna hit 10,000 plus. I almost see this as a polling. And the people are saying consistently a lot of things. And then when you see that they're all experiencing the same thing, that says something to you. Some are frustrated about AI in the future. They are. Others don't even bring that up. They're worried about the data centers, what you need to power AI, and how disruptive that might be to their life.

Does this moment feel different for you compared to past activism you've been involved in?

It does, for a long time, I think, and I say this because I too get comfortable or complacent or I want to believe that there's something out there that has our backs. And I think I don't think I'm watching what people are reporting across the country. They're starting to realize Superman's not coming And they're going to have to stand up and speak up. And show up for themselves and fight for themselves, their family, their health, and their community. And so I've never seen anything like this. I really haven't. I had no idea that it was the whole country. I've ever seen something this big that's actually bipartisan. I haven't, and I'm sorry, I gotta say that. And so councils are now seeing, and I am getting more and more reports, are city councils gonna postpone. Because of the opposition from the people. That doesn't mean it's not a no, but it's a pause. And they need and they deserve answers. What it means, where are you gonna put it? I don't want it on top of my kid's school. Put it 25 miles over there, out in the wilderness, in the desert, down in the Antarctic, but not on top us. And I am seeing more and more city councils putting on pauses. That's a good thing. That doesn't, again, doesn't mean a no. It's gonna take cooperation on everybody's side. The big tech companies, the city council, and the people. This is really, that's so important. This is about the people, all of us.

Well, Aaron, it was a real pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for the time.

Hey, thank you for having me.

Alright that's it for today, thank you so much for listening, make sure you're following the show wherever you're listening right now so a new episode will pop in your feed right away. We'll be back on Wednesday. I'll talk to you later.